Old North Wilkesboro

[ai_line_mod]

Hmm I've tried that. I copied everything to a new folder (wilkes -> north_wilkesboro), changed the corresponding names to the dat, cam, and ptf, and put the trackmat folder (which has everything in the dat) in the track folder (see attached). New Folder is my working folder, where I've unpacked everything. I have also tried removing it from the track folder and receive the same error.

And you are correct, I did not change the geometry. In fact, all I did was open the ptf in sandbox and click save, without changing anything. It asked me if I wanted to center the track. I tried both Yes and No (before when I've encountered that prompt on other tracks and clicking Yes seems to break it if I remember, perhaps because it makes the LPs invalid?).

I am quite puzzled to say the least.

 

[Riviera71]

If you've tried both yes and no to that question I guess that's not it (I've never tried centering a track after making the lp's) but I guess it could be that AND something else. Have you tried a testing session without the lp's?
Also, which mod (more importantly physics) are you trying it in? You have fast.cup.sim there which almost always works but iirc when I tried it without having the actual cup folder in my series folder it returned a "track could not load" message when I tried something based on gns or cts physics. If you've removed the cup "mod" try adding a fast.xxx.sim based on what you're running.

 

[ai_line_mod]

If you've tried both yes and no to that question I guess that's not it (I've never tried centering a track after making the lp's) but I guess it could be that AND something else. Have you tried a testing session without the lp's?
Also, which mod (more importantly physics) are you trying it in? You have fast.cup.sim there which almost always works but iirc when I tried it without having the actual cup folder in my series folder it returned a "track could not load" message when I tried something based on gns or cts physics. If you've removed the cup "mod" try adding a fast.xxx.sim based on what you're running.

Aha! If I remove the LPs the track loads! So now this leads to a new confusion: why?! All I did was open the ptf, click save as, and save it. When it asks to center, I say No.

I know that the WR wilkes is based on the Noonan version because I can take the LPs from the one I converted and replace them in the WR version and the track runs fine, and vice versa. HOWEVER, I opened the Noonan one I converted and the WR version, for which the LPs are interchangeable, and see that they have slightly different track lengths (see attached). How is this possible??

(BTW, I am using a vanilla exe with cup physics.).

 

[ai_line_mod]

To be thorough, I opened both race.lps (WR and Noonan) with Nigel Pattinson's LP viewer and see that the tracks are sliiiightly different lengths. However you can see that the LPs (compared below) are exactly the same. I went through segment by segment and indeed some of them are a bit different in length, but this doesn't help me to understand 1) why the LPs are interchangeable, and 2) why the converted track rejects its own LPs after it is opened in sandbox and then saved.

 

[Riviera71]

It's late a friday night with all of what that includes (beer...) but that's a strange one. One track being 0.0004% bigger than the other is bizarre, especially after just being opened in sandbox and saved. Did you convert NL-> Nr2k3 or N4/Nr2k2?
fwiw, the NWilkes base I've traced from google maps is considerably shorter at 868.02 meters

 

[ai_line_mod]

Yes, you've been an enormous help; enjoy a beer!

I converted NL-> Nr2k3. I could try again...

And yes, I'm not surprised that the track length/size may be different in real life (this is probably true for many tracks in game). However for my purposes, I want the track as designed by the Makers, if possible....

 

[ai_line_mod]

I opened a new thread in Technical Helps as my original question has been answered and the issue I now am experiencing is better suited for that board. Riveria71 many thanks for your help you have been an excellent source of information and troubleshooting suggestions.

 

[Riviera71]

NP, trying to figure out oddities with tracks is, as weird as it may seem, actually kinda fun
I'm tempted to covert it myself and see if the same thing happens here. Might try it tomorrow (or make new pit lp's for a track I'm working on, depends on which one wins the distraction contest I guess lol)

 

[ai_line_mod]

Let me know what you find out! It's driving me crazy. I've tried converting another track from NL (riverside) and the same thing happened! And I've found that the riverside 1970 is based on this Noonan conversion ("Riverside was a Noonan convert; its cool too. Riverside was an NL track."). How did they do it???

I also tried scaling the track (what is this feature even for?) various fractions of a percent. No go...

And I'm with you; I mostly like to tinker with the game. But this Noonan conversion adventure has me stumped. I have spent so much time dialing in the AI and making an Expert setup, now all I need to do is figure out how to change the walls as the fence surface really mucks up a car.

 

[Riviera71]

Tried it and it's the same for me, same track length and same "could not load track" so maybe it's an intended feature?

As for your walls question, I'm not 100% sure what you mean but after looking at it in sandbox I *think* I know what the problem is. On the straights there is a wall that's 0.6 meter wide and in the turns it's armco that's 0.1 meter. Looking at in turn 1 the armco part is sticking out outside the wall so being to close to the wall means hitting the armco. Same thing in turn 3 but 2 and 4 should be good. (ignore the yellow texture, I changed the texture on the top to yellow paint to make it easier to see)

 

[ai_line_mod]

Tried it and it's the same for me, same track length and same "could not load track" so maybe it's an intended feature?

As for your walls question, I'm not 100% sure what you mean but after looking at it in sandbox I *think* I know what the problem is. On the straights there is a wall that's 0.6 meter wide and in the turns it's armco that's 0.1 meter. Looking at in turn 1 the armco part is sticking out outside the wall so being to close to the wall means hitting the armco. Same thing in turn 3 but 2 and 4 should be good. (ignore the yellow texture, I changed the texture on the top to yellow paint to make it easier to see)

Interesting you get the same result. And yes, these are the points I mean. I've seen the AI (and myself) get destroyed when hitting these points. This and a few flagger things... just housekeeping, but apparently it cant be changed!

I'm still completely confounded how the other two Wilkes tracks where the LPs work with were made. How did the LPs work? In the other thread I made, Fortine_oo suggested maybe the centerline moved, which is a thought.

Thanks for looking!

 

[Riviera71]

You can just move the armco w-section a hair until it no longer protrudes outside the wall w-section. There are no x-sections there so you don't even have to unlock geometry. I also noticed that the walls are set to Vertical (usually it's Perpendicular) so there could be some serious air time when a car hits it
What are the flaggers issues? I haven't tried racing on it.

I wasn't involved so it's just a guess but the lp's probably didn't work so they had to make new ones

 

[ai_line_mod]

You can just move the armco w-section a hair until it no longer protrudes outside the wall w-section. There are no x-sections there so you don't even have to unlock geometry. I also noticed that the walls are set to Vertical (usually it's Perpendicular) so there could be some serious air time when a car hits it
What are the flaggers issues? I haven't tried racing on it.

I wasn't involved so it's just a guess but the lp's probably didn't work so they had to make new ones

I'm not sure I understand. Just opening the ptf and saving it in sandbox at all makes the track incompatible with the LPs that came with it. So I would not be able to make these changes? Am I misunderstanding something?

And no, the deal with the LPs are, they are compatible between Wilkes versions. I can take the LPs from the NL converted version and put them in other Wilkes versions, and vice versa, and they work. How could the converted LPs work with the other versions of Wilkes if they HAD to make new ones?

As an aside, I went down this hole because the WR version of Wilkes had LPs from 2002, before the existence of sandbox. So, this suggests that these are the LPs which shipped with the Noonan converter (and indeed they are) as they are interchangeable.

Perhaps making a video explaining all this would be helpful, as I admit it's confusing..

 

[Riviera71]

1: I'm not sure I understand. Just opening the ptf and saving it in sandbox at all makes the track incompatible with the LPs that came with it. So I would not be able to make these changes? Am I misunderstanding something?

2: And no, the deal with the LPs are, they are compatible between Wilkes versions. I can take the LPs from the NL converted version and put them in other Wilkes versions, and vice versa, and they work. How could the converted LPs work with the other versions of Wilkes if they HAD to make new ones?

3: As an aside, I went down this hole because the WR version of Wilkes had LPs from 2002, before the existence of sandbox. So, this suggests that these are the LPs which shipped with the Noonan converter (and indeed they are) as they are interchangeable.

Perhaps making a video explaining all this would be helpful, as I admit it's confusing..

re 1:
yeah, if you open the track and save it you will have to make new lp files but to get rid of the wall issue it could be worth it.

re2:
I'm just as confused as you are why the lp files doesn't work with a freshly converted track that's been saved in sandbox. Wrangler (and others) obviously started with a track from the converter so I have no idea what's changed.

re3:
lp files doesn't have anything to do with sandbox (you make them in game) but I don't know what people used to make lp files before nr2k3. I don't have N4/nr2k2 installed so I can't check if the possibility to make lp files is in there. Maybe this was something that was unlocked at the same time as they released sandbox?
All the editing I made before nr2k3 was downloading extra cars (and even that was only until nr2k2) so track making/editing was well above my pay grade at the time

 

[ai_line_mod]

Yes, I realized after I posted that it's not just sandbox that matters, but reflap. AFAIK there's no way to turn on reflap in NR4 and NR2002 (I have them installed and I tried). But Nigel Pattison I believe came out with RpyToLp well before Nr2003, and also with a nifty program to edit the LP files manually if necessary to make things run smoothly for tricky tracks (mostly for GPL I believe).

Also, I believe I'm inching closer to understanding. I see that the two tracks for which the LPs work were both "centered." So, part of the solution is centering the track when it asks. The other part is I believe the length discrepancy, but not 100% certain on that yet. It must be some setting in the sandbox, but it's one I haven't determined (I tried various percents in scale with no success).

 

[ai_line_mod]

I tried 3dSimEd and found that the ptf as packaged with the conversion opens fine, but if I open it in sandbox and save it, it no longer opens in 3dSimEd but gives the following error: Problem Building Geometry (attached).

I'm not sure what that tells me, if anything, but I'm still trying. Somehow the sandbox is not playing nice with this ptf.

 

[Riviera71]

Hmm, my saved versions opens in 3dsimed, although I did apply all the textures etc properly (doesn't affect the geometry at all though).
You could try rightclicking outside the track and Unlock All Geometry. Then zoom in and rightclick somewhere inside a segment (but not on any section) and select Rebuild Track at the bottom of the drop down. Save it as wilkes2 or something and maybe that opens in 3dsimed?

 

[ai_line_mod]

I figured it out!!!

After countless hours, I finally tried Unlock All Geometry and then selecting Rebuild Track (see screenshot). As long as all the sections are unlocked when you click rebuild track the track magically resizes to 1005.02 meters. When I save, I choose yes to centering track. Bingo!

Thanks for sticking with me Riviera71 your suggestions helped lead me down the right path and eliminate other issues that might have arisen!

 

[Riviera71]

Glad you got it working